005 - Sexism & Avoiding the Male Gaze
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The Writer's Retreat
The Writer's Retreat

Episode 5 · 2 years ago

005 - Sexism & Avoiding the Male Gaze

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

What does it take to write female characters while avoiding the male gaze? What is a male gaze anyway? Join writers Lia Mack and Leslie Rhodes as they welcome Cyberpunk guest author Corey Ostman who explains it all. Oh, and drinking games of course. Join Us!

This episode is sponsored by innovative editing. For All your writers out there ready to go all the way with your story, check out innovative editings expert and engaging e letter the genuine writer. It's completely free, so sign up today at innovative editingcom. That's innovative editingcom. Hello and welcome to a podcast all about writing with writers. Leah Math Leslie Roots. This is the writer's retreat. Awesome. What are you drinking, leslie? I came over. Actually I was just going to have my usual water on the rocks, but today I came over and Leah made me a nice movie to. I did and it's such a treat. I should have made my why did you make yourself one? Well, I'm dumb. I have a glass of water rolls today. Huh, yeah, I well, anyway, it's made with a honey simple syrup. That's very good, so it's good for you. Awesome. So today's episode, well, we have one of my favorite people and the show. Did we have a guest? Yes, our guest today formally wrote fiction for computers but now writes for humans. He's the author of for cyberpunk novels portcast Bert Mars descent. There he's rising and pod Booch, that talented Corey austiness. Cory, welcome to the writer's retreat. How are you good? Thank you for having me. This is going to be funny. So what do you drinking today, Corey? Since we're at the writer's retreating, anything goes. I have I have a nice glass of white wine. That's a growing locally here in New Hampshire, New Hampshire Yard, sweet, baby vineyard. Sweet. I love how that seve baby vineyard so cool, awesome. So today's episode we're going to talk about writing female characters while avoiding the male gaze. which is that even me corry. I mean, what, what is this? It's not. It's not so much writing from, say, the female or the male perspective. It's because we live in a patriarchal society. Often the default position is to write women as sex objects, in other words, the female characters are always worried about their hair, their make up, what clothing they're wearing. And I made a I made a specific choice that I didn't want to perpetuate that, especially since the books are set two hundred years in the future and hopefully by then maybe we've gotten a little bit better it. Yeah, yeah, and especially since my protagonist is, is, is a woman and, for want of a better term, she is basically like a military professional, you know, other than making sure her uniform is correct, which everybody in the military would have to do right, she doesn't really care make up anything like that, you know, she just she just needs to look correct for, you know, whatever position she's in. And, like I said, I really, I really want you know, I really made this choice along with my editor. I want to make sure that younger readers know that, you know, they could be these character. You know, they if they if they have green hair, that's fine, if they're bald, that's fine, it doesn't it doesn't matter. It is very difficult in a patriarchal society to separate yourself from those sort of default writing positions, because we see it a million times of movies. A female character will cross in front of a mirror and stop and look very true, you know, and it if it's necessary, okay, if it's logically necessary to the story, then by all means, but I think it has nothing...

...to do with the story, then it really doesn't belong there. My point of view, right, if you had a narcissistic perfectionists. Exactly, exactly, kind of like my characters concerned of the number of mirrors in my house. Now, okay, Leslie, so after after this episode, count the number of mirrors. and Leah's house thinking about it too. Everywhere to churn there. Oh well, this, this is totally different than what I was thinking, and I wasn't thinking that at all. No, I like this is yeah, and that's that's why, when we were discussing this particular episode, I was emphasizing the word avoid, because it's like so easy to not even think about it, but I think it's I think it's something that, if it's not essential for the character, it should be avoided, because it allows so many more readers to enter into the character, you know, without worried about physical appearance. Right. So can we flip that to writing a male character while avoiding the female gaze? How do we ADJUDT objectify it? We assume that they don't they mental cry. They have to be tough. So like I'm thinking of Finn Ben is not. He's like the opposite of that, and that's your main character and that's my main character. So I guess I'm doing the same thing with him, because I'm not portraying him as this like tough wolf. He definitely cries. Please, definitely like shows, because we don't. We teach a lot of people parents out there and teach their boys don't cry. Boys don't cry, be a man. And it could be cultural. Also be culture to yeah. Well, also, an important male character in Leah's book likes to watch soap operas. Yes, he does. Yeah, and and that's a good example of, you know, breaking the female gays right. I would say the female gaze is not as much of a problem, though, just because there is there is such a patriarchal society that we're living in, but you absolutely can be aware of it as your writing male characters, you know, as female ricords. Yeah, I find like because I have a son, you know, he's I'm always thinking, making sure I remember that he's human before he's a boy or like. Yeah, and like he has emotions and you know, he might be getting certain messages from society or friends or video games. I mean those video games totally do not avoid the female gaze at all or the male gays for female characters in the male gaze. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm saying because all the men are ripped, they're all strong and all the women are wearing high heels and have the boobs hanging out exactly. Well, the Corey tell us about that. That also had something to do and cract me if I'm on your cover of your book, right, you really put some thought into yeah, the cover of the so it's a it's for me it's a delicate balancing act because the novels are set in the future, because you know they're they're under the broad, you know, heading of science fiction, but the type of stories are coming out of the like the Golden Age of science fiction, which speaks to like what you guys are talking about in terms of video games. So like sometimes when my protagonist, whose name is grace, is on the cover, she has a shapely figure, but that's like it for the cover. She's not. She's in like a full military uniform. She's not wearing a thong bikini or something like that, right, because these so you...

...know, useful enough battle. Absolutely. But you know, if you knowgue, when you read parts of the book, she doesn't spend a lot of time worrying about appearance. And as a writer I don't spend a lot of time writing about her appearance, because I want the reader to put themselves into that character, even if the reader is male, which most most readers are or science fiction are male, and they're not reading it for voyeuristic reasons. They're really kind of interested in a strong female league character. I do not know that. Yeah, I mean, that's that's why, you know, like a character like like Princess Leia and the original star wars trilogy was very popular. Okay, because you like, she was take charge. She wasn't you like. She wasn't like there for like eye candy, and she was not a Damsel in distress either. No, no, you know, I totally skipped over this part. I didn't even ask you two tell us about yourself. So, Corey, tell us a little bit about yourself. Okay, so the Corny intro the guy put in there or sent you guys about writing for writing fiction for computers, is because I started. I started writing software professionally when I was sixteen. Wow. So I wrote video game software all the way from you know, like video game cartridges up to having I work for an aerospace firm that Craigd F eighteen flight simulators for the navy and the Marine Corps awesome, sort of like video games on the ultimate scale. I did control system software for like subway systems. So like part of the subway in New York steady runs on software that I worked on. Wow. And then my wife and I worked on a couple of companies that were completely entrepreneurial. That you know, we're also like heavily software and data really. But after that I really just wanted to do something different and decided to start writing science fiction. So just you just wanted to change your courses, do something polar upset and you're just like, I'm gonna write books. Yeah, you, yeah, I mean I've always I've always enjoyed reading, I've always enjoyed listening to audio books. I always enjoyed writing, even from like junior high high school. It won't come as that much as surprise that I played a lot of dungeons and dragons and junior high, high school, in college. So and that's that's like storytelling. You know, you the dungeon master. Not that often. I like I like just sort of relaxing and just playing, you know, let someone else do the work. Let someone else do the work. My son joined a group and he said like the Dungeon Master basically writes the whole story. Yeah, yeah, but the characters get to decide how the story unfolds. So it's like one of those those books when we were younger, like choose your own ending. Yes, I love those. There's start. Yeah, more of those, by the way. But yeah, dungeons and dragons is very like world building and story building, plot, twist, characters. Yes, yeah, it's very good and it's also very relaxing and like I've been playing with the same players, most of them, since high school, and now our son has also joined the group and the last four years. So it's fun having him part of the group. Yeah, that all right. So your part of what the cool thing of how we met Corey is that he's part of our writing critique group. Yes, and he helps a great deal. Probably that's an understatement. Yeah, I always feel like hanging. Yeah, probably need to pay corey, yes, to deal with our emotional roller coaster. Oh my gosh, maybe we should write ourselves less from the female gays. Corey walks me off the...

...ledge several times a year, not a week. We probably that's telling more accurate. We benefit a lot from having your and our group. Yes, we're extremely thank I think we benefit a lot from each other, don't you? Don't you think it's it's good too. It's good to always just bounce ideas because it's so easy for you to get Lyin to, you know, the simplicity of what you're trying to say and and another person can just, you know, fresh set of eyeballs look at something and they're not necessarily trying to tell you what to do, they're just seeing something that you maybe haven't seen because you know it's all in your brain and you're just not seeing it. Yes, that's what happens to me all the time. Yes, I'll think something is obvious because I thought about it, but it's not actually written down anywhere. Depends if it's your logic brain or your creative side. Right. That's tell us more about our listeners. Probably would benefit from a next one today. It sounds like a good that sounds like a good episode at a future podcast. That is a really good they might need someone as a guest to be the logic side of it, because I think both of us are strong and the creative side, like although I'm starting to learn, look at things first to see if it's plausible before you let your creative side go willing billy and, just like Lama, make it all pretty and Nice unicorns and yeah, yeah, make sure it works, like a Web page. We're just talking about web stuff. And make sure it works before you make sure looks pretty. How is how has our group benefited? You? Really, the main thing is changing my process so that I kind of inverting the pyramid. Instead of worrying so much about writing, worry basically ninety five percent about planning and making sure everything works and then just use the remaining five percent to write. Yeah, we have this conversation recently where you definitely have changed the way that you write things. Yes, more time planning than you are right. You're basically you're not doing what people do. Is Like I'm writing a thousand words a day. Yeah, because I used to do that. And I mean if your goal is to write a thousand words a day, you can do it, but they might not be the right thousand words, right, and it's and it's really difficult to know that. And I mean you can basically the you know, put that work on your developmental editor, but it's really hard to do that because it's it's tough for them to necessarily pull the pieces apart and figure out how it should go together once you've already written it. Yep, and this way it's cutting out a lot of the painful editing process right. Yeah, although developmental editing isn't necessarily painful if you if you have a good dator to work with. But it makes things a lot more streamline because all of the all of the brain work, like like you were mentioning, first of logic and then, once you've built the logic, adding the create of scaffolding or this, you know, the creg of skin to the logic scaffolding, makes a very easy for an editor to just look more at things regarding continuity and making sure the story, you know, moves forward in a manner that makes sense for whatever genre you happen to be writing. So how we're how we're writing our books, is definitely a going against the grain. From what I see from other writers, I don't know if it's against the grain. I think it you're either in one camp where you're writing from the seat of your pants, the pansters, or you're the...

...planners and we're the I used to be a Panser, like Corey was saying. He did just write were to get a work out, but now I'm more of a plan or where I plan everything. I'm building scaff and then going and put on the skin. Like yeah, we said, yeah, we know. The great thing. It's just losing your you hear, you hear more people writing as Pancers, as you call them, then you do as extreme planners, probably because the planners are busy planning. Ah, that's what I think, because it's see, it's so easy to say, Oh, I wrote one three hundred words today. Yeah, right, yeah, and then you so many easier. You can't. Yeah, you can't tell somebody that you spent six hours thinking about this one aspect of one scene. Yeah, right, it doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't necessarily come across that you did anything. No, it doesn't at all. Right, yeah, the I mean, you know, those people that are worried about the actual planning stay quiet because it's kind of impossible to talk about you can't really quantify it. Yes, up to another planner, say I'm looking at this from a tenzero foot view. Now I'm looking at it from a FIVEZERO. Now I'm looking at it in the weeds. You know that, as a planner. You know, they're they're breaking things down. It's also difficult switching that mindset. Definitely, because when I was, you know, a Panster or pants. Is it pancer or Pantstir? I think it's pant sir, Pant Sir. Okay, but don't don't quote me on that. Like, your creative side is so fluid that. You're right, you have to like find a cork and cork that fluidity of your creative side so that you can logically look at things and plan them out. And it's not easy. It's not easy, but you have to you have to consciously put a cork in it. But here's here's the thing. So, because I come from both in engineering a computer science background, the idea of sitting with a blank piece of paper and starting to write a story terrifies me really. You know, it terrifies me now too, because I've been planning for so long I'm afraid to just let it flow. Yeah, well, what am I going to write about? I'm not going to just throw it out, fifteen thousand words out there. I gotta have a plan. You're right, I feel like I ruined myself, but but at the same time I bettered myself, because when I go to right and I put that that pretty skin in, that creative juice flows and the scaffolding becomes you know whatever, you know picture is supposed to be. It. I only have to do it once and kind of go through it with a fine tooth comb. Once. Yes, like it's almost published, publishing, polished perfect. It's like I would have to do hundreds of revisions to get it that way if I had just barfed up a whole bunch of words and then had to go back over it million times. So, I mean the end product, I feel like is is pretty much the same. It's just how you what methodology you want to pursue. But yeah, like, yeah, I'll never be able to go back. Yeah. The thing is, though, that by worrying about the actual structure and taking care to do lots of planning, it's going to be much easier on the reader. I think so too. I mean my first book, waiting for paint to dry. Drank. Well, we didn't say what the we didn't say what the drink word was to. Oh Yeah, if you haven't heard the mental health healing episode, you have to hear it. For our drinking game. I say my novel's Name Way Too many times. So we made a drinking game out of it. So I apologize. Didn't pick the word that. Maybe we should have a I don't know, it's too is it too like to make a drinking game? Probably so, yeah,...

...you know, it's it's basically been about a year and a half for me since I've changed my writing process and it's now so much less stressful. Yeah, you're flying through this, cory. I mean I really can't wait till people read coryes book because it is phenomenal. Is so well written. Cory is a phenomenal writer. This is yeah, this, this latest chapter is a departure for me, though, just because one of the characters has a bunch of built in points of view within his own character interest. So that is that's quite a different chapter than any of the other previous chapters. Is it more challenging? Yes, it's much more challenging. So the scene is taking a lot more planning, but it's I would say it's almost there. But my first book waiting for paint to dry dry. But that took me ten years to write because I didn't plan it at all. I just wrote from the seat of my pants and I had to go over it again and again. So it sounded like I was doing a lot of work, because I rewrote the first six chapters and I rewrote the last ten chapters and I redid this and I working on this. I've been working on the sequel for about a year and a half now, and I mean like you're right, for you can take like a month to just think through the next scene. You really have to think through it. It isn't like you're throwing words on a piece of people. You really have to think through it. What are the characters doing? Does it make sense? Is it tied to your thing? Yeah, are you breaking their contract with your reader? Are you? I love the contract. You can't break the contract with your rears. What else goes into a quarry? There's also floating issue, letting issue. That was the floating issues, and then foreshadowing and back story. Yeah, all these nice little nuggets that we should have more episodes about, but not all goes into it. The planning, and that's what sometimes takes the longest. Is Right and take the first go around isn't going to be the right one. Tell you that right now. You should never say I mean I always think it's perfect, but then I you know, later I wake up the next day and like map toss that. Now writing this way, how has it? Has It helped you in regards to avoiding the male geese, because you're really planning this out? Actually going back and looking at all of the scenes that have been finished, even in the planning stages, the outlying stages of those scenes, the Pov character is never really inventoring their physical traits unless it's like central to the scene, because it's just it's it's completely wasted. It doesn't you know, it doesn't need to be there. Right only like in Mac flesh, there is the theme of macflesh is is very simple. It's just discrimination as wrong. And so you can, if you want to stay true to your theme, you could have a bad character in if you're writing their particular Pov, they could be looking down on people based on, say, appearance. Right, that would make absolutely perfect sense. Okay, but if you're writing from a pov of one of the heroes and the story, you would not expect them to do that because they would then be on the wrong side of the theme. If you have a character that is like straggling the theme that you don't know whether they're good or bad. You know, they could have lapses and judge people by their looks or only the only the bad guys, will use that as, as you know, some sort of weapon, and only the good guys would completely avoid it. And and just so that the listeners are cleared, because theme is can be such a nebulous word. Yes, theme is just simply the moral of the story that...

...you're trying to give to the reader. So you mentioned that you've worked with an editor before. Yeah, on all of the books, all of books. How is that fantastic? So, basically, I knew that I wanted the books to be interesting forever. I don't I may have writing skills, but I don't have egating skills. What do you mean, like just like line editing? Or with the four books that have been done so far, each of them have gone through both developmental agating and line copy editing. Developmental agating might take months to a year, and then lying and copy igating, you know, could take maybe a few weeks, because that's literally just yo grammar based on you know, you might be writing for the US market or the UK market, at the Australian market, you know, but I wanted a professional and products. So I wanted to basically work as if I had a contract with a publishing company. So, you know, I hired a cover artist, we hired an editor, I wrote the software, the actually formats the ebooks and taught myself how to do the actual formagging for paperback books. Wow, because Microsoft work has come a long way in terms of type. Second, so, but sorry. So you're an indie writer. Yep, Yep, in every sense of the word. Yeah, everything, but but see, a lot of people think that that means that you do everything yourself, but that's not what it means. You know, I think Weggon indie writer means is you treat it like a business. Right, so you're part of the business, is you right? You Right, as best as you can. And then the things that you can't do, like I can't draw. You wouldn't want to see a cover if I drew a cover. Right. I don't have editing skills. I mean I do have the ability to create ebooks and paperbacks, right, but I I definitely can't make an audiobook. So for those sorts of things, we hired that. How did you find your editor? That's one of our favorite stories. So my wife, before we started our own businesses, used to do a lot of consulting work for various companies and when she would get fed up with a particular company, she would just shop her resume out through a bunch of recruiters. and well, I mean a bunch, I mean a bunch. So when it came time to selecting editor, she sent out samples of the first chapter of the first book to a hundred different editors. Wow, we got sort of the full spectrum of responses. Some of them just responded with like what their rates are? M other ones responded by saying, Oh, this is great, you really don't need that much Aga Tam. I knew that just wasn't the case and I saw that. It's like no, they're just interested. You love that cheerleading, but you know it's yeah, it's there's just there's no way. They're wanting easy bunny and they're going to make a couple of corrections. So the the editor that we worked with, her name is ness, basically took the first chapter, went through it line by Lyne and in Microsoft Word agged comments, suggested changes, but explained every single step of the way. So what we received was chapter one back, okay, and I could go back and look, but I think it had maybe three hundred suggested as. And Wow, how did they make you feel? Oh, no, it made me feel good. Okay, because that's exactly what I was looking for, because I think I don't remember if it was last week's episode, Leah, where you mentioned Stephen King's book on writing. Yes, if you look at the second half of the book and you see how he edge...

...to his own writing, he was brutal. I mean there wasn't a single line that didn't have like four or five changes to it. Right, he made a yeah, and and a lot of it was stuff crossed out right because it was getting in the way of the story. And and that's what a good dator does. That is exactly what a good dator does. Now with NEC Flesh, the plan is because nest has already seen neck flesh version one and she threw it back to me and said rewrite it from scratch. Oh Wow, at that point he crawled up in Chack. Final positional, lastlie moment. No, because nest, nest gave me reasons. Okay, so I could see why it needed to be rewritten. You know from scratch, from scratch. Yeah, and and did you just jump right in or did you take a year to to like you were happy? From that? I guess. I guess it in. Well, that was about the time that we started guard critique group, so it was like the perfect timing room, you know. But see the way that MEC flesh is going to be now, the new version of Mac Flash. I think nest will just be able to take that and do like a copy edit on it, because all of the developmental aspects, like what we were talking about, little for show, goes Google, little pieces where you know readers will fall in love with the characters and the story. They'll already be there right. But this is why we had Korean or. He has such a pluthrow of knowledge and information. He's the best, very, very, very good. He's good at breaking things down and explaining it in a way that makes sense to you. You don't understand it. Great, cory, I think so. Like yesterday, Leslie was kind of having a melt down and toward the word, toward the end of the day, I wanted to post in our critique group that my chapter was done, but it kind of felt like I was inserting the knife and twisting it after Leslie had gone through. So I didn't say a thing. I didn't say sweet, I appreciate you. That is really sweet of you. I was completely emotionally depleted by the end of the day. I told you that. I was like, yeah, it's it. It's always kind of funny to look at situations like that in retrospect. When you message me first thing in the morning, I sort of jumped into problem solving mode. Okay, and Leslie was like typing right away. No, no, I just want to rant. I don't want you to fix it, I just want isn't that? Oh, yeah, that sorry. Real gays, FEMA, gays, men are always trying to fix well, it's specially yeah, you listen, talking to somebody that has spent most of his life doing engineering work and writing computer programs. So you're asking for it if you present something in terms of a problem, and that's good. You told him what you needed. I just need to fit. I did. Let me just give him an look. I just need a it. All right. So tell us one thing that's on your bucket list. Um, when the world is back to normal, it's originally, originally we were going to celebrate our twenty five anniversary in Paris, which was in September. But that's yeah, well, so did we. And See, the last time we were in Paris our son was six and it's difficult to do a lot of things, you know, with with younger kids. But now our son wants us on the other side of the world. So you know, it wouldn't be...

...a problem, right. But, like I was going to say, so when everything is back to normal Paris, we still want to do we'll just rent an apartment there for a few weeks nice and hang out, and then we have family both in Costa Rica and the Philippines. So those are also very high on our list. Yeah, absolutely, twenty five years. That's congratulations. Thanks. When is that exactly? It was September eight happy at our first yeah, that you missed it, sa you chocolate. I know you were go that's his favorite chocolate. Your favorite is chocolate. I I liked you for a reason. Chocolate and wine. The course. You have a good book to recommend to our audience that you read lately or any book that you love. is on your top three. It's a science fiction book, but I think it is would be really appealing for people that don't necessarily read science fiction. HMM, the name of the book is Warriors Apprentice, and the the author is Lois McMaster Bougeld. She's actually, if you're if you're into science fiction, she's a very famous science fiction author. Yeah, when you say science fiction, are we talking like Martian like in this? So this the genre that she mostly writes? Thing is military SCI FI. Okay, I never even heard that. Sounds really cool. But the great thing about the book is the protagonist is a teenager that wants to follow in his father's footsteps and become a great military leader. But because his father was a really high ranking military official, someone tried to assassinate his father but instead harmed the the protagonist, who was being an artificial yugurists at that time, and so he was born crippled and normally around. I was thinking, yeah, it's actually called a Yugur and replicator in her universe, because, you know, this is second the future. Why would women put themselves at risk of dying by carrying a fetus? Well, if you know, I'm just yeah, turn no, I'm just saying from a this is once again, they're like, we're getting ready to answer this this. Yeah, but this, this, this is a creative solution for a logical question. This is true. Yeah, it may not be your creative solution. And the male gaze. Yeah, well, it was. It was from Lois as gays. That's hurt. That's certainly this is gays. Interesting. Well, no, see, it's a it. Once again, it's also avoiding the male gays because it's giving the female character a choice. Right, true, true, true, and it's it means. Look again, it's called Warriors, apprentice, Warriors, a prentice. Okay, Yep, I'm looking that up. That sounds really it's an awesome book, and so it's actually not too long. So now I saw it is interested in knowing more about neck flesh while you're still developing it. Is there a way that they can read some of it? Yeah, so if you go to Port Caspercom, and that's Casper, Liking Casper Wyoming, because that's where it's set. So Port Caspercom, you can actually sign up to get access to chapters of NEX flesh. As I write. It awesome. It is so nice, especially this time. You know, we're all stuck inside, have really nothing to do. Well, we have, we have something to do. Oh yes, we...

...have to talk, to talk leslie away from the cliff up, Leslie, I made your yeah, I really feel that I'm learning so much from this chapter. I am. Yep, and it hurts, even if it hurts a whole lot and all the things that we do as writers, it hurts the first few times. Like, did your first books pay you at all? Sor Now were you just, you know, gifted with the perfection? I would say, okay, what I know, what happens with a lot of writers is that they are devastated by working with an I got her, because a good editor will be honest, and that means being ruthless, and that's kind of like our critique group is like working with an editor as we write. Yeah, it's a little bit better, though, because all of us are like working together. You know, we're we're all in the trenches together, right, but that's why you have to take time and select the right at her, you know, if you're if you're going to indie route, you really have to take the time. Well, I think that's that's important about our writing group, and if anybody else wants to have a writing you is that the people in there have to be honest yes, I mean a little bit of cheerleading is okay. cheerleading is good. I think it motivates. I think once every once in a way, I need a little good job. Yes, wait, but core is right. It's like a good a good editor and a good team. Will be brutally honest with you. And Yeah, it's work at the end of the day. It's work. Yeah, yeah, I mean, what's the goal of your book? Is it just to write it, publish one copy and put it on your bookshelf and you know whatever? But if you want other people, you want readers, to read it and enjoy it and to write multiple books, it needs to be polished and publishing perfect. And I think you have to ask yourself, and I had to ask this, is what do you really do? You want to learn how to write, or do you just want to write a book? There's a huge difference. Yeah, and I had to and I talked it over with my husband. He's the one. It was like, do you want to write a book or do you want to learn how to write? I mean, do you just want to write a book, just just get in over right, then you really want to learn? There's a difference, huge, huge different that is I've getting chills. That's a big discovery. Raising smart, smart, yeah, all those a lot of thinker. Yeah, drink, drink. That was one of those things. I was like, no, you're right, I want to learn how to write. Then that's it. And then he's like then that's that's then it's not going to be easy. Right, correct, drink, he likes, although he's like, I love that. They like put you in place and tell you what you need to do. It saves him effort. Yeah, who wants to be more lazy? Yeah, I think this is great. Huh, but it's true. Is True. Anybody can write. We can, like, we can just sit here and just write. I could write his barf up some more right, and it's done. That done. Today, I wrote about but then what we're doing is really learning the crap. I mean we're really learning the craft of right. Yeah, yes, there's a so so, my easiest analogy, which may not necessarily connect with either of you, but I'm just going to throw it out there just in case, in case it connects with a with a listener, is I find the act of writing very, very similar to actually writing software, and in...

...writing software you write the software a program compiles it and it spits out errors, telling you that you need to correct this code, that you gave it right. The compiler doesn't have any EGO, it doesn't hate you, it doesn't like you, it's just telling you. It has error filter, and editor is just telling you which parts are broken. And you want that. You don't want someone absolutely want to kid you. You want your software to work right, your book to work. You want your software to work. Yeah, I like that analogy. Yeah, yeah, well, because, Leah, you were mentioned you. You mentioned that you used to design websites. Right, I made them pretty. Yeah, but I mean if you wrote broken html, the website wouldn't vote correctly. Oh my gosh, a whole page can disappear from one bracketness, exactly exactly, and so can a book. You could talk, you can lose a reader over the course of a few sentences. You break the contract with the reader. Yeah, especially with my younger readers, I can you can lose them Super Oh yeah, you have such a Tinye attention span and they don't know about the well, let me of this book a chance. Well, kid, yeah, say that that and that's the same thing should hold true for adults. Life is too short to read a bad book. I like that. Yeah, and I didn't make that up. That's something that Stephen King said. Stephen King, there we go, he'd hail well, because he actually, you know, he actually says why. You know, he when he says something, he just doesn't make a statement. You'll say why, and and that's you know, it's true. Why, why would you spend your time reading a bad book? Right, if it doesn't capture your imagination in the first page or to why? Why would you do it? I mean it's one thing if you have to pass a class and callage your high school, but or your masochist. Well, this is why a lot of adults, one say, get out of school. They never read a book again. HMM, which is sad. It is sad. I know, Leslie, what books do you have such you're reading this week that? I know we're at a writer's retreat, but, like Stephen King says, if you don't have time to read, how can you call yourself a writer? That's true. Yeah, it's true. What do you read? I just finished a really good book which your wife had recommended to another writer and I had just already gotten the I had already got the book which she had put it was funny. It was like, okay, I'm supposed to read this book and it's if you're really into time traveling books. It's a witch in time by constance are. HMM, it's a really it's it's her first. No, boy, believe Paly saying that wrong, which she's a phenomenal book. I think your wife really enjoyed it too. Write course. Yes, yeah, it's one nom only written the way she does her Pov's, the amount of research she went into, the the historical there's a lot of historical stuff in there. It was just it was a phenomenal book and I finished it within I guess, like a couple days. It wasn't, I mean I could not put it down. So you devoured I devoured it, and those are I mean because it was so well written. Yeah, I mean this book was so good. I mean it was the he was like one character in for three different by I don't know. Because you time travel at you have to read it. It's it's a great book and if you're really into the time travel another one that had read a while ago that I really wanted to recommend was kindred by Octavia Butler in. Okay, that was another. Have you read that one? Herry? I have a UK your you can't really go wrong with Octavia Butler. No, that one was a really good book too. So, yeah, so we are going to put the links to the books and in the show notes, right. Yes, Leia. Yes, and...

...if you want to Hashtag that you're reading it too, you can put a writer's retreat, podcast, book club. WHOO, Book Club, a Book Club, because I thought, you know what, I read a lot, so I want to share. I love sharing books, and readers are the writers. have to read. Yes, and I love. I love sharing books. Okay, I want to hear what other people are reading too, because, well, I'm reading warriors apprentice next. So, yes, I'm going to tell us about about it too. Yes, I the book that I always I read and re read is the Martian or the road. I love those two books. I don't know, they have nothing to do with the genre that I rate in wow. N All right, cory, we hit on a lot of points. We did. Mean I don't know what to make the title of this this episode, because we talked about the mail gays, planner versus, Pan Stair Editors, indie publishing logic versus creative. We also we touched on theme. We touched on flogging issues, contract with the reader. Hmm, but that's where the writing retreat is good for you get to talk shop. Yes, that's true. How often, how could we have hit any of these points with anyone on the street? Like you can't talk shop with non writers. What are you talking about? Creative? Well, and if it's okay, if your new writer and you don't understand what we're talking about, you will, yeah, to throw that out there too. So all the newbies, right, whatever. Yeahs NEOBS, you'll become a snee and no time. Yes, yes, yes, thank you, cory. Thank you for having me on. We heart you. Thank you so helpful and genuine and everybody needs a corey in their life. Yes, well, like I mentioned, I'm a computer simulation. So we each have our own version then. So any last notes? Leslie's really good at this part. Now. I don't have any last notes. I mean, we touched on so much. We will make sure that will link all the what we'd some of the stuff that we talked about the need to be linked on there that you can find it and if you we miss something, just email us. Yeah, or contact us on the writer's retreat podcastcom. There's a contact form there. You just like any website. We try to make it like, you know, professional. Yep, and we do have a twitter account. Oh, that is new. It is new. Just groan and grown aren't. Yes, it's at a writer's retreat. Yeah, we are on twitter. We are on twitter and I manage that one. So that's exciting. I actually stepped out of my bubble and manage just little social media. Yeah, so you can go to the writer's retreat podcastcom twitter, find us on Instagram at the writer's retreat podcast, or on facebook at the writer's retreat podcast. So what we're going to talk about next time is Leah? HMM, I think. I mean, we have a podcast about the writer's retreat, right, right, but we've never really talked about being at a writer's retreat. So we have not. So maybe we should have someone on that has been to a writer's retreat recently. Yes, we should. Yeah, and you know what, I know someone you just got back from a writer's retreat. So he's an international author. She's in Canada, Carolyn our Parsons. She's got multiple books under her belt and she just got back from a writer's retreat and I think we should should have her on the podcast. Yeah, we are. Yeah, next week citing. Is Exciting. Yeah, that sounds like it will be fun. It will be fun.

Yes, I know, so to me. Yeah, so Carolyn our Parsons going to be on. We're going to talk about writer's retreats, like a brick and mortar actual ones. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Corey. Has Been Awesome talking to you. I feel like I've learned a lot. Thank you for having me. It's always fun. Yeah, I had to take notes. She did take notes, right. How do we wrap this up? And okay, so that's a wrap.

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